Perseidenbeobachtung mit Amateurfunkmitteln

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Silvia Kowollik
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Perseidenbeobachtung mit Amateurfunkmitteln

Beitrag von Silvia Kowollik » 29. Aug 2017, 05:55

Hi,

es ist vollbracht, ich habe meine Aufzeichnungen mit dem SDR-Play als Empfänger und einer 4-ElementYagiantenne für das 6-Meter Band endlich abgearbeitet.

Visuell habe ich nicht viel mitbekommen, bei uns auf der Sternwarte hat es an den Abenden des 11. und 12. August geregnet. Die Aufzeichnungen liefen größtenteils unbeaufsichtigt vor sich hin und an den folgenden Wochenenden habe ich die Daten auf nem USB-Stick mit nach Hause genommen und dort dann ausgewertet.

Bild

Am 6. August habe ich die Antenne aus einem gekauften Bausatz gefertigt, aufgebaut und die Aufnahme mit dem Programm HDSDR gestartet, am 7. dann den Aubau stabilisiert, weil der Wind die Antenne über Nacht verdreht hatte. Ab dem 8. August hat der Rechner kontinuierlich aufgenommen...

Viel Spaß beim Angucken...
Silvia

Timo Kuhmonen
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Re: Perseidenbeobachtung mit Amateurfunkmitteln

Beitrag von Timo Kuhmonen » 29. Aug 2017, 17:45

hello,

thanks for sharing results :-) This topic is also interesting for me.

I have tested also the reception of 6m echoes, the frequencies that had used are located at Russia. Currently I had heard typically 5...7 different remote TV station carriers at 49.75MHz region. Many echoes seen different time on a different frequency. My permanent station at central Finland for remote use is on "to-do" list. I have a possibility to test 6m antenna (2 element diamond yagi) on the next few weeks.

Could you clarify how the data got into your diagram. Are you using a third party sofware that calculates number of echoes? I do not have yet use the SDR play, so not sure what features it has.

In my own tests I have used HDSDR together with Ettus B100 SDR radio for reception (50...2200MHz). There I have routed audio (with virtual audio cable) from HDSDR to HROFFT for echo calculation. Then finally draw a diagram with HROFFT -> RMOB colorgramme.

I do know that HDSDR has a capability to save the actual RF spectrum to wav file continuously. Also it can take a periodic image capture of RF waterfall -> which I plan to capture strong "head echoes" - what would be used for the further calculation.

Unfortunately in my case, the HDSDR is very unstable with Ettus SDR, I believe it is a sofware issue somewhere (most propably in HDSDR, or the DLL uses towards Ettus). I tried to contact the author of HDSDR - but it seems to be very difficult to any get feedback there. If I do not had these sw issues, then HDSDR would be very fine tool :-)

Have a successfull hunting for the echoes :-)

-Timo, OH7HMS

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Dennis Hennig
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Re: Perseidenbeobachtung mit Amateurfunkmitteln

Beitrag von Dennis Hennig » 29. Aug 2017, 20:34

Hallo Silvia!

Tolle Ergebnisse!
Ich habe noch nicht mitbekommen, welchen Sender (in welche Richtung) auf welcher Frequenz Du mit Hilfe Deiner Technik beobachtet hat.

Grüße!

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Silvia Kowollik
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Re: Perseidenbeobachtung mit Amateurfunkmitteln

Beitrag von Silvia Kowollik » 29. Aug 2017, 22:34

Hyvää päivää Timo,
Could you clarify how the data got into your diagram. Are you using a third party sofware that calculates number of echoes? I do not have yet use the SDR play, so not sure what features it has.
I counted each reflexion by my eyes. Therefore I had the screenshotprogram "Shotthescreen" parallel working, which made a screenshot every 4 Minutes. Per hour "Observing" I had to look at 15 images and make sketches in an Excel List...

It was a test, if the antenna (4-element Yagi, Lamda/2) is good enough to catch any reflexion. The result was very unexpected to me. I though, the combination of antenna/RG58 cable/SDR-Play would show max. 30 or 40 reflexions/h. ;)

Next test will be an automatic count. Therefore I have to install also an virtuel audiocable and set "output" in HDSDR to that virtuel audiocable. And in SpectrumLab to set "Input" on that virtuel audiocable. Then Spectrumlab can "see" the signal from SDR-Play. Unfortunately there is no Plugin (driver) for the SDR-Play for SpectrumLab availiable. Maybe the SDR-Play is tooo new. Then Spectrumlab (or an other program, for example HROFFT) needs a plugin for counting automatically...
I do know that HDSDR has a capability to save the actual RF spectrum to wav file continuously. Also it can take a periodic image capture of RF waterfall -> which I plan to capture strong "head echoes" - what would be used for the further calculation.
If you save RF as wav-file, your Harddisc will run over in one or too days. 4 Minutes recording creates 2 GB on Data. Save only the AF-signal. Thats only 2 GB/day. :)

How does HDSDR capture waterfall-images? Can you show me the Screenshot, wehere I can klick on that option?

Cheers
Silvia

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Silvia Kowollik
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Re: Perseidenbeobachtung mit Amateurfunkmitteln

Beitrag von Silvia Kowollik » 29. Aug 2017, 22:39

Hi Dennis,
Ich habe noch nicht mitbekommen, welchen Sender (in welche Richtung) auf welcher Frequenz Du mit Hilfe Deiner Technik beobachtet hat.
ich hab den Sender von BRAMS in Dourbes/Belgien auf 49.969 MHz angepeilt. Um den Azimut rauszubekommen, habe ich schlicht in einer Landkarte Dourbes mit der Position der Sternwarte per Strich verbunden und dann die Antenne auf diese Linie (per Augenmaß und Geodreieck) ausgerichtet.

Grüße
Silvia

wolfgang hamburg
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Re: Perseidenbeobachtung mit Amateurfunkmitteln

Beitrag von wolfgang hamburg » 30. Aug 2017, 08:06

Moin Silvia,
Silvia Kowollik hat geschrieben:If you save RF as wav-file, your Harddisc will run over in one or too days. 4 Minutes recording creates 2 GB on Data.
das wav-File sollte sich sehr gut komprimieren(MP3 oder OGG) lassen. Das sollte ein halbwegs aktueller Prozessor auch "on the fly" schaffen. Oder man komprimiert die einzelnen Häppchen später.
https://www.google.de/search?q=mp3+reco ... +-softonic
(keine Programme von softronic,com laden, addware!!)

Grüße wolfgang

Timo Kuhmonen
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Re: Perseidenbeobachtung mit Amateurfunkmitteln

Beitrag von Timo Kuhmonen » 30. Aug 2017, 12:22

Silvia Kowollik hat geschrieben:
29. Aug 2017, 22:34
How does HDSDR capture waterfall-images? Can you show me the Screenshot, wehere I can klick on that option?
This feature is not wery well visible on HDSDR. I have not found any menu to activate it. There is a list for keyboard shortcuts to HDSDR v2.76.
http://hdsdr.de/hdsdr_keyboard_shortcuts.htm

Look at the "GUI Functions" table:
"Save current RF Waterfall to image file - periodically ---> Ctrl + Shift + W"

I have tested it and seems to work. I have used it under win7. It saves capture files to default location:
c:\users\xxxxxxxx\my documents\hdsdr\

What version of HDSDR are you are using ? I recommend to use latest v2.76.

Timo Kuhmonen
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Re: Perseidenbeobachtung mit Amateurfunkmitteln

Beitrag von Timo Kuhmonen » 30. Aug 2017, 13:08

Silvia Kowollik hat geschrieben:
29. Aug 2017, 22:34

I counted each reflexion by my eyes. Therefore I had the screenshotprogram "Shotthescreen" parallel working, which made a screenshot every 4 Minutes. Per hour "Observing" I had to look at 15 images and make sketches in an Excel List...
ok, understood now :-)
Silvia Kowollik hat geschrieben:
29. Aug 2017, 22:34
It was a test, if the antenna (4-element Yagi, Lamda/2) is good enough to catch any reflexion. The result was very unexpected to me. I though, the combination of antenna/RG58 cable/SDR-Play would show max. 30 or 40 reflexions/h. ;)
Similar test I have planned, when I setup my equipment for the echo monitoring. I will test it for certain time and evaluate - will the data be usable. Amount of echoes will be one important value. There has to come enough echoes, also in the time when known meteors showers are at minimum. For the own antenna, I will use RG213 cable.
Silvia Kowollik hat geschrieben:
29. Aug 2017, 22:34
Next test will be an automatic count. Therefore I have to install also an virtuel audiocable and set "output" in HDSDR to that virtuel audiocable. And in SpectrumLab to set "Input" on that virtuel audiocable. Then Spectrumlab can "see" the signal from SDR-Play. Unfortunately there is no Plugin (driver) for the SDR-Play for SpectrumLab availiable. Maybe the SDR-Play is tooo new. Then Spectrumlab (or an other program, for example HROFFT) needs a plugin for counting automatically...
If you use virtual audio cable, there has be to note one thing. Normal free version of virtual audio cable, produces notification to the output of a "virtual cable". There is audible "this a free version" comment heard every 10 second or so... Problem is that if this is feed to echo count software, it also detects "audible note" as a real meteror echo. This I have seen with HROFFT. Licensed version of Virtual audio cable, removes the notification.

Even if the Rf receivers and software work ok, there is not always possible to get correct data output from system. One important factor is the RF signal propagation. There could be so called aurora or Es propagation, which usually make impossible to receive echoes, since the carrier will be "on" all the time. Also local interferences might affect.
Silvia Kowollik hat geschrieben:
29. Aug 2017, 22:34
If you save RF as wav-file, your Harddisc will run over in one or too days. 4 Minutes recording creates 2 GB on Data. Save only the AF-signal. Thats only 2 GB/day. :)
For normal meteor echo counting, I only use routed audio. I am aware of the data sizes when saving RF spectrums :-) This RF waterfall capture would be to used to save a larger part of spectrum - in a situation where two (or more) different time syncronised receivers at different location(s) are listening same TV carrier...

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Silvia Kowollik
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Re: Perseidenbeobachtung mit Amateurfunkmitteln

Beitrag von Silvia Kowollik » 30. Aug 2017, 13:52

Hi Wolfgang,
das wav-File sollte sich sehr gut komprimieren(MP3 oder OGG) lassen. Das sollte ein halbwegs aktueller Prozessor auch "on the fly" schaffen.
das ist richtig. Aber so ein komprimiertes Signal kann man dann nicht mehr verwenden, um das Wasserfalldiagramm erneut ablaufen zu lassen. Manche Meteore zerlegt es ja mit einem tollen Spektakel am Himmel. Und aus der Figur im stark gespreizten und langsam laufenden Wasserfall kann man einiges Ableiten...

Bei Vorträgen kann man dann mit dem unkomprimierten AF-Signal von der Festplatte die Situation nachstellen...

Grüße
Silvia

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Silvia Kowollik
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Re: Perseidenbeobachtung mit Amateurfunkmitteln

Beitrag von Silvia Kowollik » 30. Aug 2017, 13:56

Hi Timo,
This feature is not wery well visible on HDSDR. I have not found any menu to activate it. There is a list for keyboard shortcuts to HDSDR v2.76.
http://hdsdr.de/hdsdr_keyboard_shortcuts.htm

Look at the "GUI Functions" table:
"Save current RF Waterfall to image file - periodically ---> Ctrl + Shift + W"

I have tested it and seems to work. I have used it under win7. It saves capture files to default location:
c:\users\xxxxxxxx\my documents\hdsdr\
ah, I understood. Thank you. :)
What version of HDSDR are you are using ? I recommend to use latest v2.76.
yes, I am using V2.76. :)

Cheers
Silvia

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Silvia Kowollik
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Re: Perseidenbeobachtung mit Amateurfunkmitteln

Beitrag von Silvia Kowollik » 30. Aug 2017, 14:15

Hi Timo,
If you use virtual audio cable, there has be to note one thing. Normal free version of virtual audio cable, produces notification to the output of a "virtual cable". There is audible "this a free version" comment heard every 10 second or so... Problem is that if this is feed to echo count software, it also detects "audible note" as a real meteror echo. This I have seen with HROFFT. Licensed version of Virtual audio cable, removes the notification.
ooops. I did not know this. Thats an important adwise! Thanks for sharing. :)
Even if the Rf receivers and software work ok, there is not always possible to get correct data output from system. One important factor is the RF signal propagation. There could be so called aurora or Es propagation, which usually make impossible to receive echoes, since the carrier will be "on" all the time. Also local interferences might affect.
yes, I have read about the problem with Es propagation. In the moment I have not enough experience, I dont know, how that looks like on the waterfall or sound to my ears...

Local interferences dont match me. The observatory is in the "outback". Nothing around than nature. :lol:

I am no licensed ham radio, I am optical Amateur Astronomer, trying something very new to me... Step by step I have to leran all that new stuff...

During a thundersorm about 30 km away I got such images :

Bild
Bild

I dont know, what makes the vertical lines. Maybe the antenna was swinging by wind and hit the other antenna?

Usualy I got such images:

Bild
Bild
Bild


Cheers
Silvia

Timo Kuhmonen
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Re: Perseidenbeobachtung mit Amateurfunkmitteln

Beitrag von Timo Kuhmonen » 31. Aug 2017, 13:47

Silvia Kowollik hat geschrieben:
30. Aug 2017, 14:15
During a thundersorm about 30 km away I got such images :
I am not 100% sure what is seen on the linked images. During lightning, there can be echoes received from remote analog TV carriers. In my understanding they are caused by reflection of upper atmosphere lighting effects. With google it is possible to find videos, where single upper atmosphere lightning is seen near horizon. At same time from audio track, a very short "ping" is heard.

Typically aurora propagation sounds like this on 6m amateur radio band. One single frequency transmitted as morse code, is heard like a noisy sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T80GMIhJNag

Also on the RF spectrum, received TV carrier during aurora is not anymore single frequency, it seems to be spreading to wider frequency band.
Silvia Kowollik hat geschrieben:
30. Aug 2017, 14:15
I dont know, what makes the vertical lines. Maybe the antenna was swinging by wind and hit the other antenna?
I suspect those might be from some remote TV transmitters. I have seen that when more strong echo (or continuous reception of TV carrier) comes, there is on both sides of carrier, typically two or more "spikes" seen. Typically spikes are appearing very near the carrier frequency.

Also disturbance from electoric appliances can cause additional "spikes" to reception. What I have seen those, spikes are typically located approx 50...150KHz between each other. Most propably cheap & not well designed switching power supplies may cause this interference.

Timo Kuhmonen
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Re: Perseidenbeobachtung mit Amateurfunkmitteln

Beitrag von Timo Kuhmonen » 31. Aug 2017, 14:06

A comments about frequencies.... I think one message earlier in this thread refers to receiver frequency.

If someone uses direct connected (traditional receiver) or routed audio from SDR - it is possible monitor more than one remote TV carrier at same time. It would require, that remote TV transmitters cannot be located on totally different antenna directions (maybe less than 20 degrees). Frequency carriers need to be in this case pretty close, approx not more than 1kHz.

When this audio stream is routed to echo calculation software, like HROFFT -> it actually calculates two echoes at same time. This kind of setup may not be possible in every places. At least in central Finland the St Petersburg and Moscow antenna direction are almost same. But two different carriers are used :-)

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